Scottish independence vote

Hi Pandora

I have seen a thread on here earlier .... https://www.hitched.co.uk/chat/forums/t/459130.aspx

I think the scots have got a tough call ahead and I wouldn't like to guess which way its going to go.

The problem I have with the whole premise (and I'm relatively neutral to the general concept of Scottish independence) is that it's a whole heap of promises that have very little foundation in reality, because that's all to be left until after the referendum. So Alex Salmond can promise what he wants but some Scottish people will vote as if this is actually going to happen.

I think it very unlikely that Scotland will be fast-tracked for EU membership. I don't think it will ultimately be problematic, but it's not going to happen automatically. Alex Salmond refuses to acknowledge this.

To be in the EU, Scotland will need a central bank and a currency. Alex Salmond refuses to acknowledge this.

When in the EU, Scotland will be unable to discriminate on university tuition fees. Alex Salmond refuses to acknowledge this.

The oil fields are somehow deemed to be uncontentious but the reality is that the UK will fight hard for them, and I've seen predictions that it could take many years - decades even - to dissemble this joint asset. Alex Salmond refuses to acknowledge this. In fact, whoever presides over independence would do better to give up oil in favour of being released from the Scottish share of the national debt, which makes the oil revenue look like peanuts.

Everything Footlong said. I think the Better Together campaign had a difficult task to persuade people to stick to a status quo which is clearly imperfect, without sounding too negative about the alternatives, which is what they have ended up doing. They seemed to have managed to put their foot in it every time someone opens their mouths.

My major concern is if it's a yes and it then costs billions of our (rUK) money for all the legal wranglings involved in the separation, it'll be like the world's most expensive divorce that we had no say over!

The only real promise is that Scotland will be run by the people who live in Scotland. That is an absolute certainty. The other "promises" are the things that we can potentially do with these powers. We can get rid of nuclear weapons which are unwanted by the vast majority of Scotland, we can chose to support local businesses by offering tax incentives, we can have land reform to address the outrageous tax dodging by the wealthiest families in our country, we can pledge to improve childcare and close the gender pay gap, we can pledge to improve poverty and create a fairer society, we could commit to leading the world in a move away from oil and towards renewable energy. A yes vote will give us the power to do all or any of those things.

Or we could vote no because we think it's too risky and nothing will ever change. We've been led up the garden path before with vague promises of "new powers with a no vote" and I've yet to hear anything that can convince me it will be different this time.

I genuinely think it will be better for Scotland and the rest of the UK if we de-centralise government and parties can concentrate on the issues addressing their local areas.

I have no dreams of an independent Scotland being filthy rich but I hate the thought of not having the power to at least try and improve things. I used to be a big no voter but I re-thought it after I realised no one from Better Together would offer any positive reasons to stay in the UK. All these vague last minute promises are too little too late, postal votes have already been sent back.

As Patrick Harvie said "If we were not a wee bit richer but a great deal fairer"

I have to say the Better Together/Westminster government have absolutely disgraced themselves with this campaign. They have done nothing to try and keep the people happy, it's been nothing short of arrogant. First refusing to include the 3rd option of Devo Max, forcing it to be a straight Yes/No question, the expectation that No would be an easy win, to their emergency dash up to talk sense into the Scots. Lots of patronising statements, embarrassing adverts and political broadcasts.

I used to be scared that it would be a yes. I hate Alex Salmond and the SNP, and I never ever thought I'd see myself as a Yes voter, but when I came round to the thought that perhaps I don't really have that much to lose, I started to look into things and consider it. I don't think as it stands I will have a state pension. I doubt I will live to see my retirement the way the retirement age is rising. I don't need independent Scotland to be rolling in it, but just to be financially sound. I certainly wouldn't rely on oil either. I have had all my questions answered to a degree that leaves me willing to take the risk.

BTW I agree with all Footlong's points about not knowing about the currency etc, and I think it would have been nice, albeit impossible, if these could have been ironed out between Westminter and Holyrood before now so everyone could have had a really informed decision, but obviously if everyone had to put their cards on the table in advance that would go against their campaign somewhat.

Thanks Daisy I missed that original thread so catching up now.

I cannot understand why full information isn't available so people can make an informed choice. Surely it is in all parties' interests to have a clear outline of how things will be different rather than coulds and shouds.

Well, I agree PB, but apparently if Salmond goes into detail on plan B, C etc, then it will weaken his negotiating position in the event of a Yes.

Obviously the govt has already said no currency union, but Salmond is convinced it would be in the best interests of Scotland and rUK to proceed with some agreement on that, it will remain to be seen though.

Re: nukes. NATO membership will be a distant memory if Scotland tries to force a move of subs/weapons from Faslane before an alternative can be found. It would leave the UK without a nuclear deterrent, a situation that would be intolerable to both the UK and the US. Of course, it's a perfectly noble desire, as long as you can hang on for fifteen years. Obviously, we'll stick you some rent, and you might find that this is welcome income. [wink emoticon]

Re: local businesses. Low taxes great. And new import duties to sell to the UK? And do you have any ideas how to incentivise the businesses that will leave to stay? Some of them will HAVE to leave - EU laws forces companies to have headquarters in the country where they have the most trade - but many will choose to.

Re: pledges. Anyone can pledge anything. F*ck it, Nick Clegg pledged that he wouldn't agree to tuition fees and look how that turned out. Are you happy with being table to 'pledge'? Is that enough? And pledging to close gender pay gaps and eradicate child poverty are brilliant, but how will it be effected. Without being a d*ck, if a unified UK still has some way to go, why would Scotland be any better? Unless there are some secrets you haven't been sharing? [wink emoticon]

I think in the long run, Scotland will be fine. I just don't see any kind of economic (and therefore social) upturn for a generation. Might it be better to use that time to further devolve so you are in a much better position?

Whyever not? It might not be referred to as the union jack but Scotland don't own blue and white.

I am a very firm no for various reasons. Although I haven't particularly liked how either side have dealt with it.

I'm hating all the politics on Facebook, I understand how serious it is and how important this decision is but I am fed up with it and want it to be over. My H and mum are both yes but I have no problem with it, as long as people have a valid reason for it, it's people who are making snap decisions without even thinking about it.