A religious meandering...

For those who are are of active faith (rather than the nominals):

1. What do you consider to be Jesus' greatest miracle?

2. Would you have betrayed Jesus to the authorities?

Note: these questions prompted by the afterword in a book I've just read, I'm not as clever as the author :)

Sorry can't answer the above questions, but what book were you reading a religious one i take it?

It is called The Good Man Jesus And The Scoundrel Christ, by Philip Pullman. Essentially, he has reinterpreted and rewritten the traditional gospels to suggest more natural explanations for apparent miracles and the stories associated with Jesus (for example, when the wine ran out in Cana, Jesus just "had a word" with the management). There is a side story running where the Scoundrel Christ (Jesus' twin) is persuaded to transcribe his brother's activities in a more "immortal" light, for the good of the world and to give future generations hope. It's really interesting.

Anyway, among other things, the afterword discusses the role of Judas and Jesus' "ultimate" miracle, the resurrection. Pullman alludes to the idea that the whole of Christianity is strongly centred on the premise that Jesus died and rose, in order to absolve humanity. If that's the case though, then Jesus HAD to be betrayed by Judas to the authorities (otherwise he wouldn't have been crucified). In which case, how is what Judas did called a "betrayal"? And knowing that without the ressurection, the basis of Christianity would be less, erm, hopeful regarding absolution/afterlife/etc, would you, in Judas' position, betray or not betray?

As an atheist, I find it an interesting premise. I wondered what some of the believers round these parts thought.

This sounds like something I would like to read.

Footlong - Judas didn't know that the death of Jesus would turn out to be a positive thing for the world. He helped in the arrest and crucifixion of Jesus for his own selfish means, so it is still a betrayal.

And it wasn't that Judas HAD to betray him, but rather that it was foretold that he would betray him. The point of the story is that despite knowing the suffering that was destined for him, Jesus still allowed events to unfold because he had faith in God. That's how I read it anyway.  

sapphire_22:

And it wasn't that Judas HAD to betray him, but rather that it was foretold that he would betray him. The point of the story is that despite knowing the suffering that was destined for him, Jesus still allowed events to unfold because he had faith in God. That's how I read it anyway.  

Why didn't Jesus turn himself in?

Because he hadn't done anything wrong. To turn himself in would be like admitting to a crime he didn't commit.

sapphire_22:

Because he hadn't done anything wrong. To turn himself in would be like admitting to a crime he didn't commit.

The priests were already looking for him. When they arrived, they simply needed to identifiy him. Whether Jesus had actually committed a crime is neither here nor there. He knew he would suffer/whatever/ and that this was what god wanted so why, when the arrest party turned up, did he not just hold his hands up? To need to be identified suggested he was trying to evade capture?

You have to remember though that Jesus was doing what God wanted him to do the whole time. Jesus was told what would happen and then let events happen. I think it was important for Jesus not to take an active role in his death because God wanted Judas to make that decision.

ForTheLoveOfMrsBrown:

sapphire_22:

Because he hadn't done anything wrong. To turn himself in would be like admitting to a crime he didn't commit.

 

The priests were already looking for him. When they arrived, they simply needed to identifiy him. Whether Jesus had actually committed a crime is neither here nor there. He knew he would suffer/whatever/ and that this was what god wanted so why, when the arrest party turned up, did he not just hold his hands up? To need to be identified suggested he was trying to evade capture?

 

Personally, I think even if I knew that death was inevitable, I'd still try and delay it. Jesus was borne by a human and therefore I presume could feel fear? Sometimes you do things to protect yourself before you have time to think properly. Does that make sense?

sapphire_22:

I think it was important for Jesus not to take an active role in his death because God wanted Judas to make that decision.

But Judas didn't condemn Jesus, he identified Jesus. The "crimes" that Jesus had committed were not defined by Judas, they were defined by the authorities of the time. Judas didn't make any decision about Jesus' death, did he?

ForTheLoveOfMrsBrown:

sapphire_22:

I think it was important for Jesus not to take an active role in his death because God wanted Judas to make that decision.

 

But Judas didn't condemn Jesus, he identified Jesus. The "crimes" that Jesus had committed were not defined by Judas, they were defined by the wuthorities of the time. Judas didn't make any decision about Jesus' death, did he?

 

He'd know the consequences of the identification though? None of his other friends spoke up

NurseBride2B:

He'd know the consequences of the identification though? None of his other friends spoke up

Do you think Judas was necessary as tool for god's work? Like, if Jesus had surrendered willingly and there was no paragon of evil to compare the goodness of Jesus to, the whole event would have lacked as much meaning?

PS. I am not trying to be flippant with language at all. This is a new area of conversation for me so I am at a loss for ideas/words/etc.

What do you think Jesus' best miracle was? Do Christians all believe in the miracles? Or are there some who try for naturalistic explanations? Is true Christianity incompatible with a slight suspicion that the "miracles" may have been dollied up a bit?

ForTheLoveOfMrsBrown:

NurseBride2B:

He'd know the consequences of the identification though? None of his other friends spoke up

 

Do you think Judas was necessary as tool for god's work? Like, if Jesus had surrendered willingly and there was no paragon of evil to compare the goodness of Jesus to, the whole event would have lacked as much meaning?

 

PS. I am not trying to be flippant with language at all. This is a new area of conversation for me so I am at a loss for ideas/words/etc.

 

I think you might be right, but in life there is frequently a "good" side and a "bad" side. I don't think he was planted there for that reason. I think you're always going to get someone who doubts/causes trouble.

As for the miracles... I'm a bit of a non-traditionalist Christian anyway, so think you'll not get a normal Christian view from me. I don't think that the focus should be about strict facts, but about the message it conveys. But then I don't go to church regularly, and believe it is your personality and behaviours that will get you in to Heaven, not how many times you pray