Vent - Cost of childcare for two

Goldfish:

lambi:

 

You have said yourself though, you could give up work, but you are making the choice not to and as such are having to deal with the consequences of having both a career and children. At the moment it is making things tight, but you are still getting to have both things as a result. It's just the way things are.  

Part of the problem is that while ideally 'we' might give up work for the years our children are young (i.e until they go to school) but it is then so difficult to get back into the workplace - i didn't give up work but was made redundant when i was pregnant - i need to have a job purely for financial reasons - i had a career before - worked long hours but got paid well - now i just want a local part time job but just can't get anything decent at all. so i can see that while some women would like to take a few years out to raise their children they worry that by taking that break they will never get back into the career they had which over the long term is surely not good for them, their children, the economy etc

lambi:

 I think it has to be accepted that things are going to be difficult in order to do this, but they are reaping the rewards from it by having both things.

I see what you're saying Lambi but actually it's not a reward I'm reaping, I HAVE to work.  I would be more than happy to not have to.  We can't survive on just my H's wage.  If we could, I'd have jacked in my job and wouldn't care because I wouldn't need to worry about going back once the kids are at school.  As it is, if I'd left while they're small I'd never have got back in again once they're both at school (jobs here are hugely in demand) and I'd have basically lost a role that is well paid for what I do, and very flexible with incredibly understanding bosses and colleagues.  Oh and is also secure despite the economy.  I can't risk losing all that.  I have no interest whatsoever in pursuing a 'career', my job is a job to pay the bills.  Nursery is completely crippling us at the moment but we literally have no choice - I'm still earning a couple of hundred a month more than what we pay in fees, it just isn't enough to cover all our outgoings, hence me being behind with paying nursery.  As you rightly say I'm very lucky that they're so understanding!

Sorry edited to say I've realised there was a typo in my original post which made it read that I COULD give up work - I mean't couldn't - hence why you probably replied as you did, sorry!  Can I blame baby brain?!

I can't believe the childcare costs. I am only working PT and don't bring home a lot after nursery fees for one child and would be in debt with 2. However, if I gave up my work now, I would never be able to get back to where I am career wise. That would mean that I would have 2 children at school and probably still be on a lower wage than we could afford to live on. I would be worse off long term, so although I would love to give up work and be a SAHM, it isn't best in the long term. SIL did this and works in a similar career. However, due to circumstances changing she needed to get back to work. The best way to do that is to work for about 6 months on a voluntary basis. Luckily her kids are at school now, but I couldn't afford childcare when working voluntarily.

I think nursery has a lot of advantages for children too. To get some of the same activities/ groups, etc also costs money which I couldn't afford if I didn't work. And yes, bringing up my children is my priority, but the same argument could be used for school age children. If we feel that being looked after by their mum/ parent all the time is in their best interest, then why not home educate, etc, etc?

I am not comfortable with the idea that different jobs have different values. I would say that all jobs have equal worth. I would hate to do my job if there were no cleaners or office staff. They are looking at cutting back on office staff locally and we would really struggle and it could put patient's lives at risk if there were a lot less secretaries. One of the most essential people at a friend's work is the person who washes up their equiptment - when that person is off, the company struggle to operate.

summer solstice:

 

By your logic, because I am a software engineer, I deserve less pay because I am not saving lives or looking after children  

this is not at all what I meant, and I'm sorry if how I have written my reply it sounds like this. My point is more that how can someone doing a job like yourself begrudge the people caring for your children earning a similar amount given the importance of what they are doing for you, and I'm sure you do class them caring for your child as very important.

Perhaps I'm not getting my point across very well, I hope that some can see where I was coming from and only meant for this to be a friendly debate.

I will back away from this now as unfortunately insulting words are now be brought into it which I find upsetting as no where within my argument have I condemned anyone (or at least it certainly wasn't my intention) for what they do or thrown any insults, just merely pointed out how I personally feel about childcare costs.

I have not said I don't think people should go back to work, or don't work hard and have also said I don't know how people have both a career and children, it must be very difficult to manage, and have also said that it's your right to moan, but I was just debating the point. I hope if you read my replies back that you will realise what I was doing, I thought it would be interesting and also wanted to say my side of things. I also pay out for childcare myself at £47 a day so I'm not coming at it from an entirely different perspective than the other working mums, but I happily pay these fees for E to be somewhere safe and looked after well whilst I work. I also work as a childminder when at home with E so I suppose I am going to look at things in a different way. The work I do now is different from my original career path, but keep my hand in doing this other work (not childcare) and like others have said this will hopefully put me in a good position should I want work in the future after children and in the meantime accept that I probably earn similar to what I pay out in childcare but figure that this is the sacrifice I make to have E and keep my CV going!

I'll bugger off with my smug arse!

lambi:

summer solstice:

 

 

By your logic, because I am a software engineer, I deserve less pay because I am not saving lives or looking after children  

 

 

 

I'll bugger off with my smug arse!

I wasn't aware that I had thrown any insults lambi.  Someone else said you sounded smug, and I said I didn't think you were helping yourself by justifying your opinion by rating the worth of other people's jobs.  I wanted to highlight that I didn't think you were looking at the bigger picture of the worth of 'office jobs'

Surely within the context of a debate if the argument someone puts across is coming across in such a way that isn't actually helping their cause, we should be able to say so without fear of them coming back saying that they would 'bugger off'?  Utimately I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I think my childminder earns every penny of her money and as I said if her fees go up I'd pay them, I couldn't tell you exactly what she earns as I don't know what her charges are for the older children at school etc, but judging from what I pay her a month, and having a guess at what she would be earning from the others I actually don't think she gets a rough deal at all!  I just really dislike that you were dismissing 'office jobs' and taking some kind of moral high ground about the worth of jobs and thought since you had entered into the debate that you could take me critising that.

I guess I felt freer to post after the what's changed on hitched post, as I wasn't expecting it to result in something of a flounce.  I stand corrected.

I never said you did throw insults SS, I don't think I directed that comment at you, just said that insulting words were being used.

I completely take on board any point you or anyone else make, and answered to say that that wasn't the point I was trying to make and that I clearly wasn't making it very well!

The moral high ground was not what I was trying to take, and i don't feel I dismissed office jobs (as I've already said, not my intention at all) just saying that I feel a childcare position is just as worthy as many other jobs, my original point being that people seem to begrudge that these people should get paid similar amounts to them.

ETA - reading some parts of your reply again, you seem to have missed my original point anyway (probably made somewhere around page 2!), ie. you saying your childminder doesn't get a rough deal etc. I never said childminders did. Again, my point being, why should they get a rough deal and you yourself have said you are happy to pay the fees etc etc. and I in turn have said it is completely your right to moan about it, I was just debating things. I don't think we actually disagree on much that either one of us have said, and the things I seem to have made you cross over was where I hadn't made my point well and I've apologised for that. I hope you can see this, I don't want to fall out over something so daft!

I'm not flouncing, but in fairness I have debated my point over and over now and there is only so long I can keep replying to different people just to make the same point I did three pages ago. Please don't feel so badly towards me, and my 'bugger off' comment was a joke, I thought that was clear. I'm sorry that I seem to have upset you over this, like I said it was meant to be a friendly debate. I don't think you need to stand corrected and don't really understand you being so sensitive about it?  

I did understand your point lambi, I thought actually you were very clear about your feelings and didn't take any offence at what you said.

I think the crux is this: no-one wants to see childcare workers poorly paid and everyone agrees it is an important job, but no-one wants to lose their entire income to childcare or give up other equally important jobs and most would like to see childcare become more financially accessible (which might in turn provide more childcare jobs).

That is an eternal conundrum unless there is outside help!

I'm not upset or sensitive - I'm not the one buggering off! 

lambi:

I will back away from this now as unfortunately insulting words are now be brought into it which I find upsetting

This made me think you were backing away because you were upset, rather than you saying you were going in jest.

I had also assumed you were directing the comments at me since you quoted me in your response, and I couldn't understand what hurtful comments had been directed at you earlier in the thread if it wasn't me saying you were continuing to sound smug and as such felt the need to come back and defend the fact that I put across an opinion in your friendly debate only to then be the target of your repsonse.  It seems I was mistaken and the comments you found upsetting weren't mine. 

I didn't miss your original point and in my last reply I told you I don't disagree with what your saying, I just didn't like the way you justified your point and thought you were digging a bigger hole rather than helping yourself!

At no point have I been upset, nor did I think we were falling out

Surely jobs all do have different 'worths' - in terms of monetary renumeration, job satisfaction, flexibility, compatibility with childcare/hobbies/relationships, geographical location. If all jobs paid the same - from prime minister, to tesco check out to teacher then there would be little incentive to learn and succeed at school and to pursue further/higher education. Using the example from earlier - should the person develping software for a GP surgery get paid less than the GP, should they earn more or less than the receptionists? As a society we place 'worth' on each role, and that influences the required education needed to attain that role which in turn affects the desirability of a job and hence the competition for it and in turn the financial reward. Some of our nursery staff are great but I don't think many of them are academically brilliant - but really what a 2 old needs is a warm caring sensible adult who can meet his physical and emotional needs to allow him to develop at his own pace. Reading dear zoo 10 times in a day requires patience and dedication not intellectual brilliance, and that's how it should be. That doesn't make them less 'worthwhile' people but I'm realistic that their earning potential may well be less, and if they coould earn vastly better salaries in another role they would be doing so.

Jobs that require greater levels of education, skills, expertise, experience and hence come with additional responsibilities will always pay more than a similar more junior role.

I have an issue with the consequences of teaching girls it's a waste of time to gain an education because they are not to pursue a career if they have children. I would love to be a SAHM for a few years, but as I'm the main wage earner (even part-time) we would lose our home as we couldn't pay the mortgage & eat on H's salary alone. Our compromise is for me to work part-time and to lower our standard of living. Being a female in a career should not be hindered by reproducing, and ultimately affordable quality childcare is a necessity for society.

I have to say that I agree with Lambi on this. That is not to say I don't respect everyone else's point of view - makes the decisions that they believe are best for them and their families - but my personal perspective on careers and children and probably most similar to lambi's.

Both my H and I felt that if we chose to have children then we wanted then to be raised as close to full time as possible by one of us. We didn't want to pass the task of caring for the children we chose to have to someone else (this is NOT a judgment on anyone else's choices, just expressing how we felt about it). We also accepted that part of that decision would mean one of us sacrificing their career on a relatively long term basis. We were happy to consider this being either of us (it wasn't seen as specifically me that had to make this choice) but as it happened about a year before having K my H set up his own business so, while I was actually the major wage earner, it was actually very difficult for him to give up work without walking away from his entire business.

We made decisions several years before K was born (mainly around relocating south or staying north and in not buying a bigger house with more stretching mortgage) that enabled us to take this decision (and I know we are very lucky to even have the option) but we realised that this was the sacrifice. We could have afforded for me to return to work full time and pay childcare and still make it worth it but the sacrifice with this would have been the monetary impact of paying childcare and, more importantly for me, the time aspect of not having one of us raising our child.

I guess what I am trying to say is that whichever decision we had taken there were major sacrifices - my career and extra money from that in one case or childcare costs and lack of time with child in the other. While I totally accept that the cost of childcare is expensive (and everyone is entitled to a good moan about it) that is the sacrifice that those going back to work have to accept - if there was little or no cost involved then it really would be having your cake an eating it (except for the sacrifice of time with your child).

Like lambi I also understand that some people don't have a choice about going back to work because finances don't permit any other decision. This is where I think the more fundamental problem lies. Mortgage and rental costs is actually what make SAHM-dom, and indeed paying childcare if that is the choice, such a stretch/ impossibility rather than the cost of childcare per se.

lambi:

Well either way I'm not now up for debating who is the most upset or sensitive now and I don't really understand the point you're trying to make as now not about childcare at all! Am glad you can see what I was getting at sfm, and you're right it is an eternal conundrum, I wish someone had the answers!

I didn't think that's what we were donig at all.  It would seem I have offended you more than I realised, as my last post was meant to be lighthearted and putting this thing to rest, by explaining my reason for reply again was that i thought the comments were directed at me when they weren't (but I didn't know that until you put me right!)

If you can't see my point from reading back my posts, I'm really not sure how to make it any clearer other than saying yes I had moved on from the OP to me pulling up what you had said about the value of office jobs vs the value of childcare, or jobs involving saving lives- which again you put me right by saying it wasn't your intention - I still don't really know what your intention was, but I no longer really want to know since I I seem to have just wound you up further.

I'm really not sure what about my posts has been confusing, and I don't understand why you've now taken a certain tone with me, so I guess I'll back away to avoid risking causing you further offense.